tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731750.post8388429786887475119..comments2023-07-29T05:54:28.833-04:00Comments on The Kalamazoo Post: How can we prevent abortion?Tonyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03056377038486402824noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731750.post-60600611592378279932011-01-09T19:33:52.463-05:002011-01-09T19:33:52.463-05:00I'm sorry... It must be me, but I can't fi...I'm sorry... It must be me, but I can't find anywhere where you explain why abortion should be rare.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731750.post-72112441317738452802011-01-09T19:31:02.545-05:002011-01-09T19:31:02.545-05:00I couldn't sign into the ACOG site, by the way...I couldn't sign into the ACOG site, by the way.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731750.post-73150577748253408072011-01-09T19:30:20.056-05:002011-01-09T19:30:20.056-05:00Tony, most Reformed Jews are very pro-choice. Were...Tony, most Reformed Jews are very pro-choice. Were you talking to religious, Orthodox Jews? I doubt it. <br /><br />I would love your take on my latest post, as it does touch on the question of how we prevent abortions. <br /><br />I will check the body of this post again to see why you think abortion should be rare.<br /><br />Moral reasoning has always held that for an act to be moral, three conditions (not just one or two) must exist:<br /><br />The means must be moral.<br />The ends must be moral.<br />The circumstances must be moral.<br /><br />Killing of the innocent can never be a means to even a good end.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731750.post-77022129725454124632011-01-05T17:12:58.244-05:002011-01-05T17:12:58.244-05:00For the record, I asked 7 Jewish friends and colle...For the record, I asked 7 Jewish friends and colleagues and none agreed with the comparison of abortion to the Holocaust. One called the prospect "interesting" as he scratched his beard; three others shook their heads in disgust and one called the analogy "insulting." Don't kill the messenger of this admittedly unscientific study.<br /><br />It's important to define morality as a personal versus a group designation; Stanford dictionary of philosophy says it can be either. One's intent is paramount, as in punishing a child either out of anger (immoral), or to improve his behavior (moral). Likewise, an abortion to save the life of a pregnant woman, or to reduce the suffering of a nonviable fetus, would be moral; performing thousands of abortions whereby proper counseling and diagnosis would be impossible is immoral.<br /><br />You might disagree, and you might pejoratively call this moral relativism, but I would hardly call it "frightening" or "awful".<br /><br />You've asked several times why I think abortion should be rare; I've answered it several times, and in the body of this blogpost. The <a href="http://www.acog.org/publications/policy_statements/sop0009.cfm" rel="nofollow">ACOG also gives it's policy statement</a>.Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03056377038486402824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731750.post-47308194449993685372011-01-03T16:08:04.375-05:002011-01-03T16:08:04.375-05:00PS: My Jewish husband gets the correlation between...PS: My Jewish husband gets the correlation between killing "less than human" Jews and killing "less than human" unborn babies. I wish you did.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731750.post-66322537732840365572011-01-03T16:06:59.919-05:002011-01-03T16:06:59.919-05:00Moral, immoral
Right, wrong
Good, evil
But I can&...Moral, immoral<br />Right, wrong<br />Good, evil<br /><br />But I can't debate on multiple blogs... I wish I could but I would spread myself too thin. So, it's back to my blog I go. Hope to see you there!Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731750.post-82537412276952773992011-01-02T07:38:29.792-05:002011-01-02T07:38:29.792-05:00OK, we're back to killing Jews...{sigh}...
It...OK, we're back to killing Jews...{sigh}...<br /><br />It might be time to re-define terms. What do you mean by <i>morality</i>, or what makes an moral or immoral?Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03056377038486402824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731750.post-51349216122593559112010-12-31T18:46:10.871-05:002010-12-31T18:46:10.871-05:00Happy New Year!Happy New Year!Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731750.post-13005750200620173912010-12-31T18:40:48.322-05:002010-12-31T18:40:48.322-05:00Can't read Harris/Prager now, but I will tomor...Can't read Harris/Prager now, but I will tomorrow. Going out to dinner...<br /><br />Yes, Harris has been writing about a secular morality and a secular spirituality... it should be interesting. I think the time has come for non-theists (more palatable term than atheists) to better define their interpretation of natural law. The problem is that non-theists rarely agree with each other, disdain any authority, and it's might be like herding cats.<br /><br />Thanks for the link, I'll catch up with you tomorrow... next year.Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03056377038486402824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731750.post-55063232506178673232010-12-31T18:40:41.616-05:002010-12-31T18:40:41.616-05:00Killing Jews was legal in Nazi Germany. Lots of ba...Killing Jews was legal in Nazi Germany. Lots of bad things are legal in North Korea. But you can't say those things are wrong, correct? Not according to your philosophy (which is subjectivism, and I'm not sure why you resist the word).<br /><br />You are a moral relativist, right? What is moral for you is not moral for me, etc.? Your truth is yours, my truth is mine?<br /><br />So, I'm shocked to read that you believe in Natural Law? Explain?Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731750.post-5454204184871098782010-12-31T18:36:59.655-05:002010-12-31T18:36:59.655-05:00Love them both. Mother and child. Voil'a! Prob...Love them both. Mother and child. Voil'a! Problem solved!<br /><br />Okay, next question.Lisa Graashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13330383394315891646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731750.post-45943639472192715642010-12-31T18:36:15.277-05:002010-12-31T18:36:15.277-05:00I don't know anything about Sharia law, but wh...I don't know anything about Sharia law, but what you describe would not fit into my personal morality... lashing people does not comport with my interpretation of natural law.<br /><br />If Sharia is the law of the land in Gumballistan, then it's legal there.<br /><br />"Subjective" is not the proper word in that context.Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03056377038486402824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731750.post-79272050993679764662010-12-31T18:32:38.874-05:002010-12-31T18:32:38.874-05:00Tony, you might like this conversation between my ...Tony, you might like this conversation between my beloved Dennis Prager and atheist Sam Harris. They actually agree on some things, and I want your take on it....<br /><br />http://www.dennisprager.com/columns.aspx?g=8a02a42e-489d-4028-b33f-570375827492&url=a_dialogue_with_a_secularistLeila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731750.post-54128707658796671622010-12-31T18:30:41.778-05:002010-12-31T18:30:41.778-05:00Wow, okay! Wow. Can I use that (and your caveat a...Wow, okay! Wow. Can I use that (and your caveat about "subjective") on a blog post?<br /><br />Also, why would you leave out subjective?<br /><br />(And, just to confirm, you are okay with Sharia Law being moral for those who are living in Muslim nations? Mercy killings, lashings for women, etc.?)Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731750.post-84855005158236680352010-12-31T18:28:42.848-05:002010-12-31T18:28:42.848-05:00Good job. You got it!
Personally, I would have l...Good job. You got it!<br /><br />Personally, I would have left out the word "subjective", but if it works for you, go for it.Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03056377038486402824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731750.post-90323392495612481782010-12-31T18:25:46.666-05:002010-12-31T18:25:46.666-05:00Sorry, but my brain is trying to wrap my mind arou...Sorry, but my brain is trying to wrap my mind around all of the implications. <br /><br />Morality is subjective, laws change, sometimes laws are moral, but since morality is subjective, then maybe laws can be moral and immoral at the same time, depending on the person? It could be moral to murder my family, but it's illegal, at least until the government (i.e., the people) say that it's legal to murder family members (Sharia?), and then it would be legal and moral (well, I guess it could be moral to the killers, legal to everyone, but immoral subjectively to some?).<br /><br />Okay.....Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731750.post-71367715760203871932010-12-31T18:16:47.186-05:002010-12-31T18:16:47.186-05:00I know of a man in town who killed his wife and tw...<i>I know of a man in town who killed his wife and two small boys (and then himself) because he didn't want them to suffer through a bankruptcy. Clearly, his intent was to love and protect them. Was his action moral? Of course not, and you know it. Intent CANNOT be the only consideration of what makes an act moral. "</i><br /><br />That certainly wouldn't be moral for me, and it apparently isn't moral for you.<br /><br />But I don't care if it's moral for him... it's illegal, so he goes to jail. We don't have to waste our time wondering if it's immoral for him<br /><br />"Morality" is a personal designation. "Rights" are a legal designation. We have to be clear on the terms.<br /><br />Euthanasia is an example where someone could very well feel it's moral to reduce suffering. I know how I feel about that, and I know the law. They might be different.Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03056377038486402824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731750.post-78861482552967121362010-12-31T18:08:29.842-05:002010-12-31T18:08:29.842-05:00So, stealing is not a moral issue?
For me it is. ...<i>So, stealing is not a moral issue?</i><br /><br />For me it is. Is it for you?<br /><br />But our laws don't rely on whether someone feels stealing is immoral, we just make it illegal for the benefit of the Sovereign (ie, us.)Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03056377038486402824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731750.post-52397684370019085152010-12-31T18:05:55.463-05:002010-12-31T18:05:55.463-05:00Our govt is our people.Our govt is our people.Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03056377038486402824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731750.post-6613069842730653512010-12-31T18:05:36.691-05:002010-12-31T18:05:36.691-05:00"...your dignity (and your right to life itse..."...your dignity (and your right to life itself) comes from something that transcends the government?"<br /><br />Yes, my dignity, my morality, is separate from our laws. Some I agree with, others I do not. Morality is a personal issue. That makes me "awful"? Geesh.<br /><br />We have been flipping back and forth between legal rights and morality, so it's confusing. Certainly I do not think that everything that is legal is necessarily moral and vice versa. I just got done saying that I thought that many abortions were immoral.Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03056377038486402824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731750.post-79741263365171745282010-12-31T17:56:02.051-05:002010-12-31T17:56:02.051-05:00And let me get this straight: Laws are about prote...And let me get this straight: Laws are about protecting the government, and not the people?Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731750.post-72789901003342147532010-12-31T17:54:09.785-05:002010-12-31T17:54:09.785-05:00So, stealing is not a moral issue?
Also, I don...So, stealing is not a moral issue?<br /><br />Also, I don't think you answered WHY abortions should be rare?Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731750.post-61591000843022648192010-12-31T17:50:36.705-05:002010-12-31T17:50:36.705-05:00Tony, my gosh, that is just frightening. I can'...Tony, my gosh, that is just frightening. I can't get over that atheists think that the state is the highest power and authority. Don't you think your dignity (and your right to life itself) comes from something that transcends the government? <br /><br />I'm sorry, but that is just so.... awful. I am so glad my rights don't come from other men. As Stacy says, that's being a happy and willing slave.<br /><br />I know of a man in town who killed his wife and two small boys (and then himself) because he didn't want them to suffer through a bankruptcy. Clearly, his intent was to love and protect them. Was his action moral? Of course not, and you know it. Intent CANNOT be the only consideration of what makes an act moral.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731750.post-10301281809084873202010-12-31T17:40:37.403-05:002010-12-31T17:40:37.403-05:00"I could murder my husband or children with g..."I could murder my husband or children with good intent, but that wouldn't make the act moral. The means has to be moral, the end has to be moral, and the intention has to be moral."<br /><br />Why not? It might not be legal, but it could still be moral. I can't think of a hypothetical case for that particular example, but the classic case of killing potentially being moral is self-defense, or national defense. <br /><br />Morality is a personal designation.<br /><br />Why are murder and robbery illegal? This goes to the basic question of "What is the purpose of laws?" Various opinions can be found: protect individuals, protect property, encode behavior...<br /><br />The answer I remember from my basic poli-sci college course (and I'll have to look for a reference), is that laws are created "to preserve and protect the Sovereign", in our case, our Government; in a kingdom, it would be the King/Queen. <br /><br />Why are robbery and murder illegal?Because their presence threatens the Sovereign with social/political unrest. Laws are made to prevent injustice only so far as the Sovereign is benefited. <br /><br />There's probably more, but that's the nutshell.Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03056377038486402824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6731750.post-11812634747396830402010-12-31T17:15:23.517-05:002010-12-31T17:15:23.517-05:00Tony, it still begs the question: WHY do you think...Tony, it still begs the question: WHY do you think abortions should be rare? WHY? <br /><br />Nathanson oversaw 75,000 abortions (in his clinics, and many by his own hand). Could he have overseen, say, 30,000 abortions in an ethical or moral manner? What number is ethical? Is it really about a number?<br /><br />I could say so much more to what you wrote, but let's start with those questions.<br /><br />(Also, intent is only ONE of the conditions we evaluate to see if an act is moral. I could murder my husband or children with good intent, but that wouldn't make the act moral. The means has to be moral, the end has to be moral, and the intention has to be moral.)<br /><br />By the way, <i>every</i> law is legislated morality. What do you think laws against stealing or murder are? <br /><br />Sorry, so much more that I want to address in what you wrote, but I will leave it at that and await your response.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.com